Betwetter1203
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Posts posted by Betwetter1203
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Its not up to the BSCDA to promote meetings, thats down to BRISCA and the individual promotions.
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Machinery- you dont need Mylaps to see such as Tom Harris / Nigel Green go faster than Russell Cooper and its a fair assumption to say the first two play with a bigger budget than the laterIts a track where the more expensive machinery has a big advantage and using the bumper to negate this is very dangerous due to the higher speeds. I remember having a letter published in SCM in the 80s about low car numbers at Hendo, nothing new, its a hot rod / sprint car track, and needs 25 car min races to be anything like stock car racing.
Interesting. You appear to be stating facts there.
So...
What is "more expensive machinery"? More expensive than? Is there a monetary threshold you must have spent above, in order to stand any chance of, say, a win or a podium finish at Hednesford? And what is this "big advantage" this machinery has? Can you quote car costs, lap times, results between someone who is in this more expensive machinery club versus someone who isn't?
Michael Scriven (12) has been very successful there. 15 of his 38 wins achieved at the track, including 5 Finals. From 2015 through 2017, Heat & Final three Hednesford's in a row. Do you class him as having "more expensive machinery"? It isn't any of my business really what he or anyone spends on their racing, but going by your assertion I can only presume, with a record like that at the track, he must be throwing £millions at it?
Using the bumper is "very dangerous due to the higher speeds", you say. Is it? Higher speeds than where? Very dangerous in comparison to what? Sitting at home in a rocking chair? Knitting? Can you flesh that out please?
It's a Hot Rod or Sprint Car track is it? So definitely not a StockCar track? People - whether drivers, spectators, whoever - roll that one out about Hednesford as predictably as the tide. Purely through, I suspect in many cases, having heard it enough times they think it's gospel. So they continue to repeat it and so the cycle goes on. I wonder if the etchings for the 1988, 1991, 1995 and 2001 World Finals on the trophy, read John Lund, John Lund, Keith Chambers and Rob Speak respectively - or next to those years does it just say "Void - doesn't count, wasn't on a proper StockCar track"?! And is there an asterisk somewhere on the chequered portion of Tom Harris' roof this year, saying likewise?
As far as I know, it's held F1 StockCar races since as far back as 1954, including four World Championships, two British Championships and two European Championships. 123 meetings and counting - fair enough not as many as some venues through history, but it's as much of a StockCar track as any other in my eyes.
And it needs a minimum 25 cars on track "to be anything like stock car racing" - do you have a fixed view, a template, of exactly what an F1 StockCar race should look like, then? And this cannot possibly be met if there were, say, 22 or 23 cars in a Hednesford race? I am intrigued as to exactly what criteria need to be satisfied, in order for these cars and drivers to elevate a race from simply, what, touring around the track in a procession, to, "stock car racing"?
To me, the variety of tracks, surfaces, speeds, fence types, flat, banked, wide, narrow, bumpy, smooth, the way a Hednesford race is different to a King's Lynn race, which is different to a Skegness race, which is different to Sheffield, and so it goes on, the assortment, the contrasts between, all of that IS F1 StockCar racing. A massive part of its appeal. How boring would it be if there was just a standard track like in athletics, 400 metres, more or less carbon copies of each other just in different locations?
Sheer number of cars on any given track may help to ensure more in the way of 'incident', purely through less available space, and them being more likely to bump into each other whether intentionally or not. Incident, for me though, certainly does not always equate to entertainment. Cars piling up, spinning, bouncing off the fence and each other on a soaking wet shale track for example, more through being out of control than anything else. I don't find that particularly entertaining, more just farcical really...
Looking forward to this one anyway, regardless of its 'status', tags or whatever it shoulda, woulda, coulda had or been in the eyes of so many. I don't think it does anyone any favours to question the common sense, or planning ability, of bodies like BriSCA and the BSCDA, as if they haven't a brain cell between them.
It's another page of BriSCA F1 StockCar history waiting to be written. 22nd September 2019 at Hednesford Hills Raceway will only happen once. You just never quite know, with any meeting. Writing one off until the whole thing is done and dusted, is unwise, in my estimation at least. Writing one off, as one commenter clearly saw fit to do, not only 6 days prior to the event at the time, but without even the first booking list having seen light of day as far as I could see? Even by the, sadly, expected murk of so many of these preview and booking threads, that was really going some.
Hopefully it does prove to be commercially worthwhile - an all-new fixture as far as I understand, for INCARACE, and fingers firmly crossed it can become something permanent and with F1's as a part of it going forward.
Its a fact that the higher the speed the more serious any injury will be in a collision, see TV ads, Hendos long straights enduce higher speeds therefore drivers will be more cautious about using the bumper.
The general public view stock car racing as you described, incidents, crashes etc, and that is thier appeal to actually pay to be entertained - too many cars on too small a track.
Remember theres a lot of car prep to set a car up for Hednesford, same for Ipswich, which I guess many drivers would ask is it worth it for 4 races?
What Ive posted is just common sense, but that doesnt mean many wont enjoy such a meeting and the Saloons would provide the necessary entertainment. Lets not kid ourselves that such a meeting would entice new people to the world of F1 stock cars.
It is what it is - a meeting for the speed purists of stock car racing.
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Would seem you have a issue with Skegness from past posts then again I might be wrong again
Do you mean me Stox ?
Very wrong if you do. I absolutely love Skegness. I was there at the last weekender and will be there for the next.
I'm delighted that both days will be Shootout rounds
That's an interesting theory about two rounds each Promoter. On further investigation it's
Belle Vue Promotions get 4, Incarace - 3, Kings Lynn - 1 and Rob - 2
But maybe it is that Incarace get 3 (for whatever reason) and they chose Mildenall over Hednesford
Perhaps the Promoters 'buy' Shootout rounds , in the same way that they buy dates ??
I believe they do buy shootout rounds, maybe why Hendo isnt one.
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I think everyones overdoing this car numbers at Hedo thing.
Hendo is different from other tracks apart from Ipswich, its a high revving track, tough on engines and requires a lot of prep on the car only to have it put back to norm for 1 meeting, so many will not bother. Its a track where the more expensive machinery has a big advantage and using the bumper to negate this is very dangerous due to the higher speeds.
I remember having a letter published in SCM in the 80s about low car numbers at Hendo, nothing new, its a hot rod / sprint car track, and needs 25 car min races to be anything like stock car racing.
The nothing meetings have one big plus - its not SOOOO SERIOUS, allowing everyone to have that thing that can be missing at times - FUN, and the lower grade drivers having a better chance of some glory.
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Do the promoters not have to pay to host a shootout round ?
Maybe thats why Hendo is not a shootout round.
Also, with no Stoke or Belle Vue next year, there will be plenty of off weeks and having a week clear after the WF seems a good idea.
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We didn't have a online booking list in the 70,s and 80,s we just went if we fancied going,a booking list never has a bearing on if I am going to attend at meeting or not
But its not the 70s or 80s, its 2019, things have changed, the way fans decide on wheather to go or not being one of the changes due to the amount of travelling involved in todays restricted meeting policy.
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All very true Steve and I know you advertise locally very well. My comments were about promotion and advertising of oval racing as a whole ( no one formula is non dependant on another ), each promoter does thier bit and individual promotions arent the problem, as a whole the promotion of oval racing is poor and because nearly each formula is run independently ( although many use the same name - brisca / stock cars etc ) the sport is very fragmented, very confusing to new viewers.Respectfully, Untrue Tim in part - every promotion is indeed different, but, PR wise we have advertised 22 papers, online and Radio for this Monday. That is expensive and no guarantee with so much else to do - and on a Bank Holiday sadly it's about gimmicks for once a year people - and in a City believe me hot weather is almost as bad as inclement with the Coast, stay cations and other outdoor activities plentiful.
Times have changed from the 1950's where we were working class and 'local' - everyone has a car, motorways and travel further and wider, jet planes to previous unheard of sunny destinations available to all, Malls, theme parks, things to participate in. The world has changed, we haven't been left behind it's evolved. 20 years who ever dreamt that a huge bulk of shopping would be done from your mobile, and major stores are now closing. It's a fast paced revolution in lifestyle habits - for drivers, race teams, families and importantly potential spectators.
The market place is much tougher! I am on my second read of Pete Tucker's biography - issues today little different to 1957-1962 and since also been reviewing magazines from 67 to 76 - We were talking about the same things - Late 1950's and 60's Stock bodied cars v 'specials' - snobbery and resistance to Juniors [ now F2] and into 1970's SAME arguments, car numbers, even Belle Vue Hyde Road had a drought period, bumpy track as did Coventry and meetings finished too late! 10.pm lol
Time has changed, 102000 at Odsal, 28000 + Greyhound racing, track running 2/3 times a day to get crowds in, Staines in an afternoon drive on to West Ham.
The overall sport has shrunk consistently over decades like speedway, greyhounds, fun fairs, circus etc,etc. All of us who are passionate want to see it Nascar and then get wound up and we have a blame culture because it hasn't happen and sadly cannot happen. We are a great sport, but we are a niche and to a degree marmite motorsport.
From 500 drivers + in it's heyday, time,cost and lifestyle has us at possible 60 active drivers and another 80 or so license holders. What we have remains vibrant, yes it has problems some extremely difficult to square the circle due to 'evolution; without ripping up the rule book and going to ground zero and starting again and from where I sit, that may also be suicide. There are lot's of discussions going on. What we should be appreciative of is the large contingent of committed drivers and race teams that allow it to remain vibrant. Doubling driver numbers is the answer, regional racing to justify infesting in a car/transport - ALL are challenges, neither can we recreate 1954 where even then, boom became bust!
Looking forward to a sunny Belle Vue - 5 ex World Champions and perhaps the best line up for some time! 20ish cars every race, 2/3rds format - BIG water tank due to arrive 7.am!
Hope to see at Belle Vue!
Steve Rees
The base of F1s is still good - reds start at the back etc - its the non race things that deter the sport from progressing in whatever form that maybe, the old ( here we go again ) things like seating, cover from the rain, non mud bath pit walks etc etc and as said, presentation.
No easy answers or no cheap answers I know, but answers there needs to be, find those answers and who knows how far oval racing ( not just F1 ) could progress.
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one of the problems these days is that folks look back on the old days and don't recall it as it was.. everyone moans about car number etc, and eveyone goes on about tracks like Aycliffe and how good they were, but 30 car tun out at Aycliffe was a good one, they hardly ever got 40 cars at a meeting.. And look at the top 10 attended meetings, most are since the turn of 2000, when allegedly we are suffering with car numbers!!!
1 2016 Sat, 3rd Sep Coventry Championship of the World / Harry Smith Memorial 144 Mick Sworder (150) 2 2006 Sat, 2nd Sep Coventry Championship of the World / Harry Smith Memorial 113 Frankie Wainman Jnr (1) 3 1980 Sun, 27th Jul Brafield / Northampton Champion of Champions 106 Len Wolfenden (190) 4 1977 Sun, 11th Sep Brafield / Northampton Race of Champions / Jaguar Championship 104 Mike Close (199) = 2004 Sat, 4th Sep Coventry Championship of the World / Harry Smith Memorial 104 Mick Harris (8) 6 2018 Sat, 15th Sep Skegness Championship of the World / Harry Smith Memorial 103 Nigel Green (445) 7 2014 Sat, 20th Sep Coventry Championship of the World / Harry Smith Memorial 102 Mick Sworder (150) 8 2010 Sat, 4th Sep Coventry Championship of the World / Harry Smith Memorial 101 Dan Johnson (4) 9 2001 Sat, 15th Sep Hednesford Championship of the World / Harry Smith Memorial 100 Andy Smith (391) 10 1976 Sun, 29th Aug Brafield / Northampton Race of Champions
Interesting but irrelevant - nearly all world final meetings.
Ayiffe May only of had 30 cars but how many were racing at Northampton the same afternoon? Another 40 ?
So 60 - 70 cars racing on the same Sunday afternoon.
The problem today isnt car numbers, very few motorsport formula have more than 30 entrants, its just the same drivers every meeting ( almost ) whereas in the rose tinted past some drivers only raced up north, others only down south, but at championship/ special meetings they mixed, allowing crowds to see drivers they didnt normally see and the north / south rivalries that inevitably followed.
From Malvern, travelling to Belle Vue / Bradford for a WF, or Sheffield / Blackburn for a semi was an adventure as there closer tracks on a weekly basis, whereas today thier just regular journeys to watch regular racing.
More variation in venues / formats / presentation and organised advertising is needed along with the attitude of many drivers not wanting to race on anything but billiard table smooth wide surfaces ( remember Crewe ).
The product is still good, its presentation, PR and refusal to develop with the times is poor, too fragmented, too insular and maybe too aloof ?
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Yes, 20% VAT on a cash sale payment with no ticket, invoice or receipt goes to government
So now were questioning a promoters honesty ????
We all need to remember promoters do it for a living, not for a F1 fans charity. Go to NIR for a non F1 meeting and ask how does he ever making a living with this low a crowd.
The same criticisms could be labelled at all self employed / small business people, promoters have to make a living and hopefully enough profit to try and improve stadia, like Mr Woods has done as well as saving Mildenhall from potential closure, or would we rather see even more stadia close ?????
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i dont understand why they charge more to get in for these events, once of a day we got a track parade of all the drivers prior to the meeting,side shows and much more of the sense of occasion rather than just another title race forgive me for being negative or wingeing ,but in all fairness lets have a little more effort from the guys who are running the show.
They charge more because bigger car turnout means higher cost - more start money esp for the Dutch visitors, more people in for no charge ( driver plus 3 ? ), higher prize money, more stewards, etc, etc.
Running a championship event costs more than you might at first think and lets be honest, F1 stock cars is one of the cheapest and best value night/day out than any entertainment, as it stands everyone IS getting thier fix on the cheap.
Remember 20% of your entrance fee goes to the govt in the form of VAT.
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Ah, just like the good old days of Stoxnet, a simple informative post ends up in argument and insult
Skeggy like many tracks does lack a seating option and that does inhibit more than you might think from attending.
Ironically Football is all seating and they campaign to go back to standing, could be some bargain sales of seating in the near future.
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Its only £2 , however it would be more palatable if 1/2 went to the Ben fund (thats £1🤭) , it cuts down on foot traffic in the pits which can be annoying if your working on cars and sometimes downright dangerous, Cov pits (sorry , the C word) were horrendous to work in
Youre right Ozzy, the pit area is a very dangerous place to be at times, folk wandering around, alcohol in abundance with both fans and team members ( whilst working on cars ), welding and cutting going on around visiting fans, cars propped up on jacks etc etc etc.
Pit viewing is one thing, an open pit policy is something else.
If charging to enter the pits helps control any H&S issues and controls free access to the meeting for some then fine,
£18 to get in + £2 to get in the pits still represents good value for money, just check the price of entry with pit access at Silverstone, Brands Hatch etc etc.
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They aren't.Maybe ( radical thinking I know ) F1s dont have to be the headline formula at every meeting,
It might seem like that if you look at promotional material aimed at F1 fans, e.g. the meeting previews on here and the stuff produced by the BSCDA.
Adverts in the banger magazines for F1 + Bangers used to just say "plus BriSCA F1" in small letters.
And adverts in the local press don't necessarily focus on F1, they tend to just say "stock car racing" and emphasise what is most likely to appeal to Joe Public and his 2.2 kids - caravan race, fireworks, stunt show, whatever.
Absolutely, my comment was aimed st the F1 die hards who assume / expect F1s to be the main formula and therefore fret about car numbers in the 20s.
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Maybe ( radical thinking I know ) F1s dont have to be the headline formula at every meeting, maybe they should / could be a support for another higher car turn out formula ?????????? Thereby reducing the emphasis on car numbers, and you never know, we might enjoy other formula apart from F1s.
There were two shale meetings last weekend so maybe adding a third in 8 days is TOO much.
Shale one week, tarmac the next would be more than enough for everyone,
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Whats negative ??? Its called reality. How many years did the sport bury its head in the sand and use the negative thoughts dont do any good line to avoid reality?go and support the tracks while you still can
when theyre gone they wont be coming back
or stay at home if you really dont want to
but please keep the negative thoughts to yourself
they dont do any good
If reality had been accepted 10 years ago then maybe, just maybe tracks might not be closing without replacements as we have now.
Belle Vue is a great example of how F1s need not be a headline formula, just part of a mixed oval racing day out for LOCALs to enjoy, something which can be a regular thing at many tracks not currently hosting F1s, and as such do not need 45 car turnouts.
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Will we really miss Belle Vue, yes we certainly will. Many fans are based in the NW and considering most of us grew up been able to watch stox at Hyde Rd, White City, Rochdale, Nelson, Blackburn, Bolton, Crewe etc, the loss of a North West venue would have a massive effect on supporter base and future driver base. Lose Belle Vue and the sport may as well be renamed EASCA. Let's just race in East Anglia and srcew everybody else because that will last for ever won't it.!
Spot on. If or when Belle Vue goes then another massive fan and driver base goes with it.
Its almost certain Belle Vue will go in the near future and instead of all the effort going in to try and save it, that effort needs to be put into finding replacements, thats more than one, as the sport is rapidly becoming an east of England niche.
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Ooh, it's like A1NOS and J4LMP all over again! Lol
Now whatever happened to that pair ??
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Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest % of stoxnet users/readers the same people as the biggest % of facebook users/readers ????
Forget Harris vs Sworder internet fans vs themselves is much more interesting.
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booking list on thier website - currently 19 F1's
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A friend would be interested in the 2003 Cov and 2005 NIR - will you split and how would want payment etc.
cheers Tim
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Excellant piece of work.
Better interior than my house
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Fair enough
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Seems strange the actual fixture list has been removed but the thread still remains.
Typical Stock Car racing, cloak and dagger stuff.
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Sorry to say this, but it's 5.00pm now, first mini race was 1.20pm and there have only been 2 F1 races.
Maybe Mr Ash could of worded his post more sympathetically, but looks like he had a point.
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Mildenhall - Saturday 26th October 2019 *CANCELLED*
in Essential Information
Posted · Edited by Betwetter1203
If watching unrecognisable mud covered cars sliding around at 10mph in sludge with drivers unable to see 5 yards in front of them constitutes racing then Brisca never cancel.
Imagine the DotD thread on here after that.
Imagine the calls for money back like we had at NIR.
Imagine the damaged cars pulling out of racing at NIR on Sunday and possibly Stoke / Belle Vue after.
Imagine the financial loss to the promoter at a new F1 venue.
Imagine all the people- oops got carried away there